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DISCLAIMER: This transcript is provided on an "as is" best efforts basis and is based on a MiniDisc recording made where speech was not always legible because of noise in the room. Any errors made in transcribing what was actually said are mine, and not those of the speakers quoted, and may include spelling mistakes, incorrect names and other minor typo's. Readers should also bear in mind that statements read in cold print can often convey a completely different meaning from that intended by the speaker and perceived by the original audience.
Question: (addressed to Brian) Having documented the three Lord of the Rings movies will you be doing the same thing for Peter Jackson's next movie, 'King Kong'? Brian: I know that Harper Collins are interested in doing some books about 'King Kong' as, who wouldn't be?! It's an intriguing possibility King Kong because it's one of my favourite films. It's an obsession I share with Peter. Oddly enough I'm working on a radio documentary now celebrating Kong's 70th birthday! I'm intrigued that Peter has finally taken it on as a project. He's always talked about doing it, and it nearly happened several times in the past but it does surprise me because in many ways it is one of those kind of films where the people who love it really do love it. From what I've seen of the advance work, and I probably shouldn't say anything about it at all, but what I have seen does look immensely exciting and dramatic and dynamic, whilst still being faithful to the essence of the story. I think the big challenge that they have to face is that that story in 1933 was fairly simplistic and didn't necessarily carry with it the psychological and interpretive baggage that I think it has today. I'm talking about issues of race, culture, sex and all kinds of dynamics in the film that which are just part of seemingly a fairy story but to present them today, have to be addressed, I think. It's going to be interesting to see how they do that. Certainly Harper Collins are interested. I'll let you know when I've done the other books! Note: A question on Saruman and the responses to that question have been removed by your transcriber! I feel there is already far too much heat and not enough light being shed on this subject and do NOT want to add to the flames being generated across the Internet. Question: Do you think the ideas of special editions are money grasping ideas for the film makers or 'Here for the fans is what they should have seen in the cinema'? Jude: I think it's a bit of both really. The extended DVDs - money making or something special for the fans? Bit of both! I think for Peter Jackson, he is a fan at heart, loves to do this and loves to be more inclusive than he's able to be in a theatrical release. So he has enormous fun making the extended editions and putting in things that we certainly wanted to see in the theatrical edition. But I'm sure New Line are coining quite a lot of money from getting us all to pay out for two editions of the movie. It's got to be a tremendous merchandising opportunity for them. Brian: What I admire about the way it's been done is that that material hasn't just been dumped on a third or fourth disc as out-takes or lost scenes or whatever, which is what most people do because it's cheap. What they have actually done is to wean it back in and, as most of you who are fans will know, the extended version of the Fellowship, and you will find it's true of the extended version of The Two Towers as well, is that sometimes it's just a matter of a few seconds, it's a few minutes, it's a whole sequence... In The Two Towers for example... I think it's been discussed on the net so much now that there's no reason to hide what's in it apart form an excellent documentary about Tolkien that Jude and myself did.. there's things like the aftermath of The Battle of the Ford of Isen ... Jude: ... which I saw them filming and which is just fantastic! Brian: So it's not just there as "Here's a bit that didn't make it" - it is actually back in the film with new music by Howard Shore, so I do feel that they have addressed the fact that we want to see it in context, and I'm sure that's cost a few pennies as well as all the money they've got in doing it. I think for me, certainly as far as the first two films are concerned, the extended version is the one that I will always go back and watch - certainly The Two Towers which is a film where I think it's infinitely better and a much more complete and entire film than the film which I felt a little disappointed at when I first saw it in the theatrical version. The thing that fascinates me is that these films have developed this great kind of roller-coaster of affirmation and enthusiasm where in fact it's quite hard to raise a critical voice. I think it must intrigue Peter because I'm sure Peter originally thought that there was going to be vast outcries. Jude: Yes, indeed. Yes. Brian: But in fact after a short while everyone seems to have accepted everything quite happily. Question: (to Jude) How did you persuade Viggo Mortensen to write a preface to your book of The Two Towers? Jude: Well I just asked him actually in the end. I knew that of all the cast if you're going to have a written piece with some depth and profundity to it then that is the person to go to. And I also knew that he has some pretty serious things to say about the nature of War and mankind and evil and themes that run through 'Lord of the Rings' and bringing them into a modern-day situation that he feels very strongly about. What we got was even more wonderful than what I was expecting to get. He really spent an enormous amount of time writing and carving out that introduction. It just makes the rest of the book feel rather flimsy in my eyes. It's a very serious little essay that one and if you haven't read it I recommend it very heavily. Brian: He's phenomenally fanatical about getting it right. I haven't been able to spend any time really with Viggo but through Jude Viggo agreed to give me, originally it was just an interview for 'The Making of...' book but it turned out to be much more complex than that because he would ring up and then send you stuff and then he'd have another thought and he'd be reminded of a poem which said something ... and it went on much longer than with any other member of the cast, possibly with the exception of Sean Astin, I think. Jude: He hadn't read 'Lord of the Rings' at all when he came to the project. By the end of it all I think Viggo knew more about Tolkien and his context than anybody else on the whole production. He read absolutely everything there was - every critical book there was to lay hands on. He doesn't do things by halves! Question: How do you guys think these three films will sit with the history of cinema? Brian: It's hard to say. I've very little doubt that these three films are going to be seen as landmark movies - I don't think there's any question about that. And I'm not sure how often that happens. What's unique about this particular project is they've been three films over three years and I think when the first 'Star Wars' film came out, 'E.T.', 'Close Encounters', you know there was a whole string of films probably as far back as 'The Wizard of Oz' and 'Gone With The Wind', and certainly when I was a teenager seeing '2001: A Space Odyssey' and 'Laurence of Arabia' you knew you were seeing a piece of unique film-making. And undoubtedly the same was true of 'King Kong' and 'Citizen Kane'. I think the difference here is that because it's been spread across three years it's allowed this reputation to build much more quickly than sometimes happens with a film. So that a film which we now regard as a classic, like 'Casablanca', was not particularly regarded as a classic at the time, and has earnt that classic status since. With this, and it's partly to do with all the promotion and the publicity and the hype, it's already been pushed into that... list. Sorry, I'm not a great supporter of 'The Big Read' or any of these current fads for listing everything - 'The Top 30 Best Films' or 'The Top 60 Worst Books' and so on - it just seems to me a pointless exercise into trying to arrange things into lists which I really don't understand except as a motivator for cheap television I think. Already this film is in all of those lists and it's being talked about as one of the classics of all time before it's even completed, so I think it will hold that status, and I think it will hold it for several reasons. One - I think it has advanced special effects. But I think it's more than that. I think frankly you can have the greatest special effects in the world and the movie can be absolutely dire and trashy. I think it's more to do with the whole cumulative effect of the films. This exhibition is a testament to it in a way in that is is the cumulative talents of so many people - artists, designers, costume makers, prop makers, you know all of that. Together they've created something which is, I think, unique. It's not unflawed but it is unique. And I think it will always stand as a timeless classic. Question: And do you think there'll be any oscars at the end of it all? Brian: I wouldn't put any money on oscars. I think it's because it's been done offshore as far as Hollywood's concerned. I think Hollywood loves its own. I don't think it likes the 'enfant terrible' anyway and I don't think it wants one that comes from the other side of the world and doesn't wear tuxedo's easily and wanders around in bare feet. I think it's just a Hollywood thing. Jude: And it's a fantasy movie. Brian: Of which precious few have won major awards. It would be good to see an award given to Peter just because it's a remarkable achievement and nobody has done it. And if it needs a niche in cinema history it is just that - that nobody has ever made a trilogy in one go. Two films, but never three. But I wouldn't put your money on it. And if you don't put your money on it and it wins then don't blame me! Simply don't blame me if you lose your shirt. Bet modestly, I'd say. Question: Do you have any information about how it was Peter Jackson got this huge amount of money. He didn't have a huge success before and yet he got three hundred million dollars. Presumably he's a tough guy to work with? He must be. Jude: It's a hell of a story. It's a very long one. Brian: That's part of the biography. The short version simply is Peter gets what he wants, quite remarkably. He has phenomenal tenacity. He has, which both Jude and I have seen in person, the ability to get people to do whatever he wants in the way he wants it done. Jude: Even in Hollywood, a completely alien society for him. Tremendous nouse actually. Very good at playing them, in the end. Question: Presumably he knows how to get the results quickly and efficiently and cost-effectively Jude: I don't think so actually... The amount of effort that goes in. And the amount of stuff on the cutting room floor is just extraordinary. To sit through the rushes and see what they've actually filmed that day - seven filming units - just to get tiny, tiny things right that then don't even make it into the final cut. There's mountains - what we see is literally the tip of the iceberg. Brian: There have been other instances in Hollywood where a film studio has been heavily pregnant with a movie that's way, way over-budget - 'Heaven's Gate', 'Waterworld' - all kinds of titles spring to mind, which at the end of the day the birth was largely still-born. In this case, certainly from the first film onwards, what could Hollywood do? Everyone wants to see the birth of this movie. Peter has an extraordinary knack for catching a public mood, for riding it. For all his appearance of being innocent and naive and the lad from Down Under he's an extremely canny businessman, and he understands what he's doing. That's not to say he doesn't take great risks and gambles. The short version of the story is quite simply that Pete went to Miramax, which is another film company. Miramax were prepared to finance two movies on 'The Lord of The Rings', which one wonders now when we hear these stories of it not all fitting in three movies - how anybody ever thought they were going to make two movies, but they did - and that's what Miramax bought. Somewhere along the line when the development was still going on but not a single frame of footage had been shot Miramax were alarmed at the budget because it had already gone over budget, just on the development money, and so decided to pull the plug and said "No, you can't have any more money" And at that point Peter Jackson said "Well what are we going to do?" and they said "Well, you can make one movie". Peter said "How can you possibly make one movie of this? It's ridiculous!" and they handed him a piece of paper and said "That's how you make one movie" and it told him exactly how to do it: the characters you cut, the scenes you compress, the places that people don't go to on the journey, and if people now think it's terrible with some of the things that have happened, just thank your private gods that that was the film that was not made. Anyway Miramax said "No". Peter was given a very short period of time to make a decision. The decision was if he could find another studio who would repay to Miramax everything they'd currently invested in the film that they could then have that property but they then had to pay every penny of it back within a period of three and a half weeks, and not only that but they had to also promise that they would have a 5% share - that is Miramax or Harvey Weinstein - would have 5% of the finished film. Of course 5%'s a lot of money, but 5%'s not as good as having made it in the first place so they're probably kicking themselves. But they learnt their lesson because they allowed Quentin Tarantino to cut one movie in half and make it two movies so you know they obviously realised this big mistake and are now very happy when somebody wants to take a movie and make it into two movies. I'm sure Mr Tarantino will make more money from 'Kill Bill' than Peter Jackson will ever make for New Line. So it was thanks to New Line really. Peter went to Hollywood and there was only one interview worth going to, New Line, because nobody else either thought he could do it, because he didn't have the track record that might suggest that he would be the right man for the job. Jude was saying that she didn't know who Peter Jackson was, and I understand that completely. I did know who he was and my feelings when I heard he was making the film were "Oh my God!" because I did know what films Peter made and I loved his films in the genre that they are but I couldn't for a moment, until I saw 'Heavenly Creatures', conceive how he could make 'Lord of the Rings' or even think of it! So he went to them, showed Bob Shaye, one of the heads of New Line, a video presentation of all the stuff that they'd put together for Miramax and at the end of it there's this famous conversation, variously related by different people in different versions, but essentially Bob Shaye sort of said "Well what I can't understand is why you want people to pay $12 to see this film when they could pay $18?". And Peter's thinking "What's he saying? Is he saying that maybe they will put the price of the tickets up for this?" He looked blank and Bob Shaye said "Well it's three books isn't it? Why isn't it three movies?" I think Peter could scarcely believe his good fortune. But, as I say, I think that we're fortunate that that was the decision that was made. So that's the short version. The long version will follow, I hope. Question: Brian, you mentioned earlier that you did the Radio 4 adaption, and you pointed out that Peter Jackson and his team had taken quite a lot of liberties with the book. In retrospect, do you think you could have done more to the radio series...? Brian: I've got to go! (FX: gets up off chair, as if to leave the room) Yes, in many ways I would love to do it again now. There's various things I learnt from Peter. The Arwen decision - the first Arwen decision of having Arwen coming to meet The Fellowship - was, I thought, an immensely sensible introduction of a character who has nothing to do, bless her! Poor old Arwen. I'd love to have solved that one. I've no regrets about cutting Tom Bombadil. Sorry, hiss hiss, boo boo! And if I did it again I'd still cut Tom Bombadil, and I believe Peter was right to take it out in terms of a different medium. Yes, I guess I would like to do it again and get a bit more feel. I do think that we were pretty faithful to the book. I'm immensely proud that it lives on. I hear all the things that aren't right now and they bug me to death, particularly the misprint in a script which allowed Peter Woodthorpe as Gollum in a scene where he pledges, swears on the precious, when he says "We will save the master" instead of "We will serve the master". You know there's things like that where I go "Damn!" The other regret is that the BBC didn't keep its out-takes, unlike Mr Jackson. There was acres of material - we nearly lost 'The Scourging of the Shire' and there were masses and masses of scenes that didn't make it, that got cut, but it's all gone, all lost in the BBC Archives, along with all the music cues, which is a great tragedy - the music cues without the dialogue. There were several tapes of all the tracks of Stephen Oliver's music that were lost. So sadnesses, but it will never be done again, and I guess the BBC have learnt the lesson from New Line, which is that you keep remarketing the radio version, now with a new bonus disc and there's going to be someobody out there who's going to stump up another 80 quid for another set. Question: In terms of the adaptation, because you've done yours and Peter's done his, personally were there any issues or points where you said 'No, you shouldn't have done that'? Brian: Yes, lots. Next question! Jude: We've got lots of reservations, but they're ours! Talk to you later. Question: Was there any casting that you thought at the start would never work? I know some people have said Sean Astin... Jude: Sean Astin? He makes a wonderful Sam. Question: I mean was there any other members of... Jude: Because we'd seen 'Goonies' and stuff like that? As soon as I saw Legolas in a blonde week I thought "Ooh, Mirkwood Elf. Should be dark!" You do get over that sort of nerdish thing quite quickly. Brian: Stuart Townsend maybe Jude: Well if Stuart Townsend had taken the Aragorn role that would have been a disaster. There were lots of rumours, weren't there, about the early casting decisions. Brian: I think my favourite castings were the ones which, and this is no reflection on the stars who I think did a great job, but I think it's some of those other roles that I really relish - Eomer and Eowyn both I think very very beautifully performed. When you see the Extended Version and Bernard Hill who, of course is really well known over here but not really known in America except as the Captain of the Titanic, poor man. Nothing wrong with being captain of the Titanic of course but we know him as 'Boys from the Black Stuff'. But when you see the extended version there's more stuff with Eomer and Eowyn and I think Karl and Miranda did a terrific job. Jude: I think the casting was fantastic, and I think it's almost the biggest achievement of the entire movie in many ways. They really did get the characters right. I walked in when the cast were not in gear, just standing around, and you could still tell, even down to which of the four hobbits was which, which I think was quite a remarkable achievement. I don't know if you all agree but I think the casting was fantastic. I thought Sean Bean made a wonderful Boromir and he really carried great authority. Brian: And if we'd had Sean Connery it would have been three Sean's, and one too many! Question: I think people have said that if Tolkien were alive he would have welcomed other people writing stories and... but that's never happened, and I wondered why that was. Is there something with The Tolkien Estate that prevents people writing? Jude: There's a short answer on that one and the answer is "Yes". The Tolkien Estate guard their property with tremendous care and that's never going to happen. Everything has to go through them. They carry permissions in all printed work. Merchandising went with the original film deal, which is why there's so much crap out there. You can't blame The Tolkien Estate for any of that stuff. All those Elvish bed covers and things like that! As far as anything printed on paper is concerned that's all down to The Estate and that all has to be passed through them, which is why the quality of what's out there tends to be pretty high in the end, although it can be frustrating from time to time as the publisher when we think we've got a jolly good idea and it doesn't get through The Estate. In the end the flame is kept pure. Question: How were the actors selected? Jude: A lot of it was down to conversations between Peter Jackson, his wife Fran Walsh and the scriptwriter Phillipa Boyens right at the outset as to fantasy casting really - you can imagine playing the game yourself really, can't you? Who plays who? What fun! And actually they were just incredibly lucky that a lot of their first choices actually agreed to take the roles that they took. Obviously there's professional casting agents involved in it and everybody I think knows the story behind Elijah Wood's involvement. How he actually lobbied for the role of Frodo and sent in his own tape, taken out in the woods with a couple of his mates, showing him as Frodo Baggins. (FX: turns to Brian) You know some of the stories... Brian: Yeah, I'm trying to think who else... I know that Christopher Lee, who doesn't really reckon, and understandably a man in his position in the film industry, to do auditions or meet to discuss things actually did a reading for a film - which part that was, who knows?! So I think people wanted to be in it - that's the other thing - and it's something we found years ago when we did the radio version, that because people do have a passion about the book a lot of people will want to be part of it. I think that's certainly true of the lower part of the cast, if you want to look at it like that - the masses of extra's and bit parts people were just obsessive geeks who had to get in there and be part of the film. Jude: Us! Brian: Who of us wouldn't? I don't know what we did wrong - we never got to be on set did we? Jude: I could have been. I was going to be. The filming schedule changed. I was going to be a wench. Two of the major stars - neither McKellen nor Viggo Mortensen had read the book or were great Tolkien fans. Brian: Nor had Sean Bean originally. Jude: He told me he had! Brian: Oh did he? Oh! You see I was told he was given the radio one to listen to. Who knows?! But I think most of them ended up reading it whether they had or not - they soon quickly became part of it and I think they themselves became quite defensive of the book. Jude: Definitely. Ian McKellen used to carry his around in a little jacket. He called it a dinner jacket, and it was - it had a little tie and everything and a cloth cover to keep it pristine. It went everywhere. Peter Jackson used to groan when he saw either Viggo or Ian coming towards him with their book. "The script has diverged!" It happened quite a lot. Question: Jude, in a magazine interview you did with SFX you said pretty much to the effect that you felt 'Return of the King' would be the best movie by quite a bit, of the three? Jude: I think the potential of 'Return of the King' is to be the best movie. Question: That was going to be my next question. Why? Jude: Well because you've got all those massive plot lines to rob. We'll not talk about Saruman! My favourite bit out of the book was 'The Paths of the Dead'. I've always absolutely loved Aragorn raising the dead king and his army and making them fulfil their oath. I can't wait to see that! We've seen Peter's special effects work to know that he can do that so beautifully. To see the Army of the Dead sweeping across the Pelennor Fields dealing with the Corsais of Umbar, which of course we've never seen anything of at all, is going to... I've seen the ship, which was rather fantastic with all these working models. I love battle scenes, I enjoy all that sort of stuff, so there's quite a lot of good battle scenes coming up. Peter is fantastic at this sort of thing. Helm's Deep was a wonderful battle sequence and everything that comes in the third movie is supposed to top that by some way, so I look forward to that with considerable relish. But most of all I think Sean Astin as Sam makes a really wonderful hero. He will come into his own in this film I think, and it's going to be terrific to see. I'm really looking forward to Shelob and all that stuff so... There's a lot of heart in the third movie and if they get it right - I can't say because you never know until you've seen how they've edited it all together - but there's a lot of heart to come if they did get it right. Brian: I've seen the central section of the third film, four reels of it, and I think it's going to be an amazing film. I think the problems that Peter will have faced in the last few weeks of months of cutting it down to a length which will fit - I don't know what effect that will have had on what I saw. (FX: to Jude) But I haven't had a chance to tell you this. I went onto one of the sets where they were filming parts of the effects for 'The Paths of the Dead' and there was a very anxious crew who had a few days to pull a new effect out of the hat because there's a point where all of the tombs in The Paths of the Dead - the walls are sort of lined with these catacombs and sarcophogi - and as they pass through Peter suddenly thought it would be really neat if you saw these ghostly superimposed figures in the background so they were then having to do new shooting to try and capture the scenes in which these special effects... so I think that sequence is going to be quite extraordinary. What I like about some of the things that have happened in the film is that: that Peter has added a sort of plus to something which Tolkien refers to. There is a reference to a cave troll in the book, but it is just a reference of being with the orcs, and yet this becomes a major piece in the film - a very exciting piece. A couple of notes for those of you who like to know about nerdy things. I happened to be wandering around one of the web sites today - if you don't know it, go and visit it, just for the sheer fun of it. It's called "The bastards have landed" and those of you don't know Peter Jackson's other work might find that a rather surprising title. It is in fact what the character Derek says when the aliens land in 'Bad Taste' and if you look on that site, visit it because someone's come up with some wonderful drawings of what 'The Lord of the Rings' would have looked like if the makers of 'The Simpsons'... There's interpretations of Sam and Frodo, and Merry and Pippin, and Gollum and Peter Jackson if he had been one of those guest stars they did on 'The Simpsons'. And just to pick on somebody earlier about that bonus disc, 'Microphones in Middle-earth', I just have to mention those of you who are real sad anoraks of many, many years will know that 'Microphones in Middle-earth' was a very early fanzine of the radio version of 'The Lord of the Rings', long before there were fanzines for the movie, and the man who edited it is sitting in the front row, Ian Smith. So thank you for the title Ian. You didn't get acknowledged on the disc but thank you for that. We're up for going and signing a few books for anybody who wants them, oh sorry wants to BUY them. Thank you for your time. We've enjoyed being with you. Click here to go back to the talk part of the panel (first half of the transcript)

		Return of the King Visual Companion by Jude Fisher. Price £14.99. Published by Harper Collins				The Maps of Tolkien's Middle-earth by Brian Sibley and John Howe. Price £20.00. Published by Harper Collins
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Email: ian@iansmith.co.uk